Curse

Lorinda · Jan 18, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Waste our time?

No waste of their time.
They do this in their spare time so its a quick and easy way.

JR · Jan 18, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

But if people stopped bringing Aegis because it is so easily counterable then I'm pretty sure that they'd be forced to bring another form of distributed block, as defense without a lot of passive block just isn't strong enough to keep yourself from dying 8v8.

So they are forced to bring a weaker distributed block, instead of a stronger one. Frankly I don't think there is anything that could have anywhere near the same impact as Aegis, other than possibly Defensive Anthem.

How is that a bad thing for toning down blockway?

TheHaxor · Jan 18, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

So they are forced to bring a weaker distributed block, instead of a stronger one. Frankly I don't think there is anything that could have anywhere near the same impact as Aegis, other than possibly Defensive Anthem.

How is that a bad thing for toning down blockway?

I think what he is trying to say is that physical pressure is too strong without the distributed block and without it the high physical pressure builds would just roll through teams. I think what he is getting at is that he believes physical pressure is a bit overpowered, therefore killing a skill like Aegis (or whatever powers it) would make one able to exploit this.

pygar · Jan 18, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

So they are forced to bring a weaker distributed block, instead of a stronger one. Frankly I don't think there is anything that could have anywhere near the same impact as Aegis, other than possibly Defensive Anthem.

How is that a bad thing for toning down blockway?

Tone down blockway too much and the game will just turn into assassinway. For a little while I was kind of put off by the slow looking grind of GvG battles I was observing......but then all I had to do was remember all the PvP games I've played in the past where defense barely matters and some matches totally end up being "spawn, get head shotted....respawn, get head shotted....respawn, do some damage for a couple seconds, get head shotted...." and so on. With the defensive spam teams can set up right now, only concerted offense or a good split/flank strategy will get you anywhere, without "blockway" PvP would just be "who is better at spamming high damage stuff to get kills faster"

TheOneMephisto · Jan 18, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I think what he is trying to say is that physical pressure is too strong without the distributed block and without it the high physical pressure builds would just roll through teams. I think what he is getting at is that he believes physical pressure is a bit overpowered, therefore killing a skill like Aegis (or whatever powers it) would make one able to exploit this.

Either that or people will just be forced to bring even more layers of weaker block. Offense needs to be toned down before defensive options can be nerfed IMO.

Dominator1370 · Jan 18, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

The GoLE mechanic is broken. It should be fixed. If it means Aegis isn't viable and teams find another skill to do the job, that's fine. The meta's the same, except GoLE isn't broken. Now, if we could address the need for blockwebs at the same time, we'd be golden.

The VoD changes should (I haven't had a lot of time for obs'ing) make blockway a little less effective at VoD, since it's going to be harder to tank NPC balls with blockwebs while you blow them up with splinter, but blockway wasn't as widely used as it was for no reason.

There are a few problems with blockway (certainly post VoD change): it means the game's barely started before VoD, and it meant that less skilled teams could try to hold out to VoD where any idiot with splinter and ancestors could blow stuff up and try to get the win. It's a common tactic, the weaker team doing its best to eliminate the skill aspect as much as possible and leaving it up to chance essentially, since they know by skill they aren't going to win.

The VoD change should make things somewhat better, but if we could get tweaks to splinter/ancestors, suddenly blockway takes a little more skill. However, it's not like it was only weaker teams running blockway to try to turtle to VoD where they actually had a chance. There are plenty of teams out there running blockway just to try to deal with the pressure.

People need to deal with pressure, plain and simple. A dead team isn't any good to you, no matter how impressive your DPS could be. The most logical way to deal with widespead pressure, and the way it was done in the past, was with party healing. More specific threats were dealt with using localized prots. Party healing's broken now, so people have had to switch to party proting and localized healing. That's no fun.

You've tried to address party healing with DH/HD. What you've failed to realize in doing so is that people don't want a long recharging "OH SHIT" button, they want active, readily available pressure relief. That's not enough, though. LoD is still around, and it's a party heal on a short recharge that no one brings. Why? 2s cast. With interrupts flying around like candy, there's a good chance that you're not going to get off a 2s cast if the other team cares enough, and you can bet your bottom dollar they care about any kind of party heal. With DH/HD, not only is it not a sustainable, readily available skill, but it's on a 2s cast. It's the worst of both worlds.

Now, to get back to the original point, you can do whatever you want: you can fix GoLE, you can nerf Aegis, Ward, DA, and any other skill that can even pretend to be party defense, and people will still scramble for a way to keep their party alive. Megadefense isn't going anywhere until party healing gets addressed, and gets addressed in a usable way. It was a nice try with DH/HD, but people want an Eprod heal party, they want an LoD. There wasn't anything inherently wrong with the mechanic, they just worked a little too well.

LifesRestorer · Jan 18, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

i lol'd at cytheria when he made BLS better than it ever was xD <-- nvm his post got deleted
only thing i would agree with buffing from the sin chain is horns of the ox.

AoS needs either a cast time nerf (1 second) or shorter duration (8 seconds at 12 prot) so it cant be kept up indefinitely.
The VoD change is pretty lol. see other thread.

iway needs more nerfing. give fear me a 4s recharge

v o i d · Jan 18, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Since you have to completely gimp characters for party heal, this game is shit. There exists not a single strong build for which you can say it has a decent shot against everything. Before the LoD nerf, Guild Wars was pretty much balanced.

Keithark · Jan 18, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Except these skills aren't trash outside of VoD, they're more like decent to good skills outside of VoD, and VoD just supercharges them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Ancestor's Rage is a great skill basically anywhere, anytime.

~Z

So you are suggesting that they should kill any good skill used by Rits? It seems the skill update threads on forum always basically say the same thing kill all classes except core classes..that is not a very good option.

TheOneMephisto · Jan 18, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

So you are suggesting that they should kill any good skill used by Rits? It seems the skill update threads on forum always basically say the same thing kill all classes except core classes..that is not a very good option.

No, we're suggesting that we should kill (or at least rethink) good skills used by rits when, at VoD, they become the most powerful threats in the game and pretty much dictate and control all strategy concerning NPCs starting at VoD.

Kyp Jade · Jan 18, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

The GolE problem can be solvd by having the glyph count decriment on cast activation rather than skill activation. This prevents someone fake casting twenty million times.

TheHaxor · Jan 18, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Either that or people will just be forced to bring even more layers of weaker block. Offense needs to be toned down before defensive options can be nerfed IMO.

If you compare warriors (or physicals in general) of now to the past, there have definitely been times when they were more powerful. I think the possible problem lies in all the buffs they receive in today's game. Most teams pack things like splinter, AR, GFTE, Anthem of Flame, etc. I think physicals in conjunction with all those buffs could be overpowered in a meta without layered block because those buffs are the means we use to still be effective against layers of block. I can't say for sure what that meta would be like without actually experiencing it. I can only assume.

I really do think people would find a way to deal with it as they always have. It might be as simple as more effective use out of active prot blocking skills like guardian.

JR · Jan 18, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I think what he is trying to say is that physical pressure is too strong without the distributed block and without it the high physical pressure builds would just roll through teams. I think what he is getting at is that he believes physical pressure is a bit overpowered, therefore killing a skill like Aegis (or whatever powers it) would make one able to exploit this.

Thats rubbish. I've played game after game recently without Aegis on the backline and generally no wards. It's definately not a case of getting insta-rolled by any physical heavy team. Pressure being a stronger option doesn't seem to be a bad thing to me. Even if taking out Aegis meant everyone took a Ward, I really don't think that would be a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pygar

Tone down blockway too much and the game will just turn into assassinway. For a little while I was kind of put off by the slow looking grind of GvG battles I was observing......but then all I had to do was remember all the PvP games I've played in the past where defense barely matters and some matches totally end up being "spawn, get head shotted....respawn, get head shotted....respawn, do some damage for a couple seconds, get head shotted...." and so on. With the defensive spam teams can set up right now, only concerted offense or a good split/flank strategy will get you anywhere, without "blockway" PvP would just be "who is better at spamming high damage stuff to get kills faster"

I think you need to take your medication.

Andrew Patrick · Jan 18, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I'll specifically ask about Splinter Weapon as well. I'm GvGing over the weekend to get some first hand accounts of the change and will be sending over all the feedback on Monday or Tuesday.

Greedy Gus · Jan 18, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I agree with JR, people are going overboard with the idea that if defense gets nerfed, some style of blockway will be required even more. I think monks need to be powered up a bit more, but defense in general can be hit without destroying the game (and gole is probably the biggest offender atm, it powers almost all heavy defensive templates).

At the same time, I will admit that you have to keep a close eye on paragons, because the existence of a 3rd heavy physical in a 'basic' build can be problematic if defense is brought down (enough has been said on that subject).

Double Pact · Jan 18, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I partly agree with the statement of passive defense being overrated; but simply buffing active defense (guardian, b surge, etc) won't do i think. What you'd need as well would be a buff of some heal skills to WoH level (not meaning they should all heal 220hp, but all being that useful). In Addition, i think that Party Healing would need a bit of a buff either...

Andrew Patrick · Jan 18, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

As a player I have always preferred party healing to party defense on both sides of the spectrum. Against it, it is less frustrating for me to do damage and have it countered with a prompt heal than it is seeing "blocked" after every swing. And the same can be said when I am a defensive profession...I would rather see the bars drop and raise them back up than just prevent them from dropping.

But hey...that's probably why I prefer healer to protter.

However, one thing to say about DA and Aegis is, while party heals will counter damage from melee, casters, degen etc., blocking only prevents melee damage. One could always take casters in a block-heavy meta. I imagine if enough people started blasting people with lighting or fire right through their block-based defense the meta may shift away from such an anti-melee based back line. Although it is early (lawl, ok so its noon and I stayed up too late playing :P) and I may be way off.

wuzzman · Jan 18, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

I can't wait till GvG is reduced to 4 warriors, 3 monks, and a splinter/flagrunner.

Yichi · Jan 18, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

As a player I have always preferred party healing to party defense on both sides of the spectrum. Against it, it is less frustrating for me to do damage and have it countered with a prompt heal than it is seeing "blocked" after every swing. And the same can be said when I am a defensive profession...I would rather see the bars drop and raise them back up than just prevent them from dropping.

So if the above statement is true, than why has there been no push to revert some of the party healing nerfs that have happened and tone down the blocking that it has created, which is what 90% of people have asked for...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

However, one thing to say about DA and Aegis is, while party heals will counter damage from melee, casters, degen etc., blocking only prevents melee damage. One could always take casters in a block-heavy meta. I imagine if enough people started blasting people with lighting or fire right through their block-based defense the meta may shift away from such an anti-melee based back line. Although it is early (lawl, ok so its noon and I stayed up too late playing :P) and I may be way off.

So you're suggesting people run some kind of caster spike such as an obs flame spike so they can just be split on every map unless they happen to get burning isle?

Double Pact · Jan 18, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Dont wanna sound insulting, but does Andrew Patrick know what a Guild Wars balanced build is all about? It's about supporting your melee, so they can score kills. You try to interrupt/shutdown the enemy defense, take away blind from melee, take away the hexes, buff them with shouts, etc.

If the casters themselves deal the damage, it's (as said above) a casterspike, because without melee finishing targets off, you'll never kill anyone with caster damage unless the damage is dealt within a second's time -.-

In this kind of meta, neither party healing nor passive defense would be needed, just a healers boon+holy haste infuser with a damn low ping...